Clarification on الجمع

[ansar]

Handout Page No. 27 the word كافر has been taken as a جَمْعٌ سَالِمٌ and the series of changes to make it into Dual, sound masculine, sound feminine is done.

Handout Page No. 29 - The same word كافر is treated as a جَمْعٌ تَكْسِيرٌ under the pattern فُعُّالٌ .

Please clarify this. Can words be treated both as جَمْعٌ سَالِمٌ and جَمْعٌ تَكْسِيرٌ

Jazakallah Khair.

[Tanweer]

According to my limited knowledge, Kafir has more than one plural.
One plural is kafiruna (as in Surah Al-kafirun) -- this plural is Salim.
Another plural is kuffarun -- this plural is Broken.
Another plural is kafaratun.
The last two are mentioned in Glossary book page 183.

[ansar]

so can we conclude that certain words can have both a broken Plural as well as a sound Plural .....if so can I get some example of such words just a few for stampling the message through to the mind.

The next question is what Plural do we use where ? Should this be left for the advanced Level. ?

[irf2k]

Originally Posted by ansar

Should this be left for the advanced Level. ?

Assalaamu alaikum,
Yes. I think we should leave it for advanced course.
I do not believe Dr. Abdur Rahim says much about this issue in the 3 Madina Books.
Wassalam.

[ansar]

The issue is that both the Plurals are mentioned in the Handout for Book 1 pages as mentioned above - so how to resolve the issue for the moment at the level 1. Until the advanced course in using them...

[irf2k]

Originally Posted by ansar

The issue is that both the Plurals are mentioned in the Handout for Book 1 pages as mentioned above - so how to resolve the issue for the moment at the level 1. Until the advanced course in using them...

Waalaikum Assalam
I do not know what you mean by 'resolve the issue'?
You accept any of them when you read the Message.

If you mean which one to use when you are speaking in Arabic, I would say the main aim of this course is not to teach you how to speak Arabic. You may be in wrong course.

After you complete the Madina Books, there are advance course books written by Dr Abdur Rahim to get to complex rules of grammar as well as etymology of words.

Wassalaam

[ansar]

Brother may be I didnt clarify in detail cos this is a bulletin board.
But I am sure I have selected the right course to do the right thing, and I know what I am doing being in a place which speeks the Language which is Riyadh. So my suggestion is to not assume things, clarification is a much better approach.

Getting to the subject I just wanted to know as a general rule - whether everyword which we use as a جَمْعٌ تَكْسِيرٌ can have a جَمْعٌ سَالِمٌ like in the case I had mentioned earlier or is it only some particular words and if so I would have liked to have had an example of one or two.

PLEASE DONT GET ANGRY - YOU CAN JUST LET THIS PASS WITHOUT A REPLY WITHOUT ANY ANGRY COMMENTS.....I am just trying to learn for the purpose which the course is intended ...and clearly mentioned in the website and the text books....Wasalaam.

[irf2k]

Assalamu Alaikum
I'm very sorry if my posting offended you.
When you say what to use it took me to believe that your main aim was to learn to speak Arabic. That was the reason of my comment.
I do not believe that all words have sound and broken plural.
There must be some reason why some words have this 2 kinds of plural.
I'll try to find out why is so and will post here, inshaAllah.
Wassalam

[benss]

Originally Posted by ansar

Brother may be I didnt clarify in detail cos this is a bulletin board.
But I am sure I have selected the right course to do the right thing, and I know what I am doing being in a place which speeks the Language which is Riyadh. So my suggestion is to not assume things, clarification is a much better approach.

Getting to the subject I just wanted to know as a general rule - whether everyword which we use as a جَمْعٌ تَكْسِيرٌ can have a جَمْعٌ سَالِمٌ like in the case I had mentioned earlier or is it only some particular words and if so I would have liked to have had an example of one or two.

PLEASE DONT GET ANGRY - YOU CAN JUST LET THIS PASS WITHOUT A REPLY WITHOUT ANY ANGRY COMMENTS.....I am just trying to learn for the purpose which the course is intended ...and clearly mentioned in the website and the text books....Wasalaam.

Salâmou'aleikoum wa rahmatoullâh wa barakâtouh,

I see you're a keen Arabic student brother ansar, May Allah strengthen your desire to learn arabic.
By the way, what brother irfk2 meant, I think, is that Medina books was conceived in a way that students are not taught thousand concepts and rules all at the same time and in an order that does not help students in their learning process, as it is often the case with other methods. Rather there is a logic in the chronology, lessons after lessons and from one book to the next. This method is a pure product of Sheikh AbduRahim's experience (hafidahoullâh) in teaching arabic to non-native arabic speakers,.

• Anyway, if you question was : Can certain words have both a جَمْعٌ سَالِمٌ and جَمْعٌ تَكْسِيرٌ ?
  
  The anwser is YES, some words have:
  1) one single sound plural form;
  2) one single broken pluralform;
  3) several broken plural forms;
  4) one single sound plural and one or several broken plural forms.
  
  These broken forms are described as سَمَعِيٌّ, that means that there is no general rule that tells you which words fall into category 1), 2),... and neither no general rule telling you that such and such word has to follow such and such broken plural pattern. In other words, سَمَعِيٌّ merely means "that's the way ancient arabs spoke !", so that's logically the way we have been taugh broken plurals in Medina books.

• As for you question of "which plural do we use ?" or "which plural is more appropriate to use depending on the context", this is beyond the scope of Medina books.
  It rather pertains to the Sciences of Balâgha (rhetoric and meanings) and Science of Morphology.
  For instance, taking your example of كُفّار and كافرون, some grammarians pointed out that the first is often used when the purpose is to qualify/characterize the persons you're talking about (in their status of being kufâr), while the second is used to describe the persons as doers of an action. There are also other reasons, like that the broken plural form is "more powerful" than the sound form in the meaning, but all of this, again, beyond the scope of Medina books.

I hope that this gives you at least a little more perspective.

Salâmou'laikoum wa rahmatoullâh wa barakâtouh.

[ansar]

That explaination sufficiently covers my question, except only - if I had a few more example of the multiple plural words I would have been a bit more happier.

Unfortunately I couldnt come across any Computer Based Dictionary which gives the Plural of the Words - Downloaded a load of the stuff in my Iphone and I have a Dictionary from Lingvosoft on my computer (this has a computer version and another version for Window CE based phone -unfortunately not for Iphone). So far this is the best Dictionary I found for the computer.. IF ANYONE HAS COME ACROSS SOMETHING BETTER I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT IT particularly if it gives the plurals and some grammer.

The only other option is the Printed Dictionaries - I need to buy one. I printed the Gloassary for the Medina Books now, I think this is going to be useful.

Thanks for your prayers brother, you dont know how much I had tried to learn the Quranic Language. I have been living here in Riyadh for the last 20 years but was not succesful in learning Arabic - this is after many attempts.

With my experience in following courses at the King Saud University, Imam University and the Islamic Propagation Centre (Jaliyath) and some private Tutions. I find the Methodology of Dr. Abdul Rahim to be the very best and the Medina Books to be Excellent. Furthermore the posting of the Videos on the net which I have downloaded completely allows me to work at my own convenience and pace. The only other need to complete the requirements is some proper online support via the bulletin board, I am now sure I can get that support. Jazakallah Khair to all the brothers supporting this. I am sure the Rabul Alameen would grant you all plentiful reward for this excellant work.

The last serious attempt at learning was when I followed the course at the Jaliyath - unfortunately after following 2 books out of the 3 it was abandoned due to lack of sufficient students.....so that was my plight. One of the biggest obstacle I faced in my various attempts was the change of books - each place has its own set of books ...and you have to start from scratch each time.....NOW MY ONLY SET OF BOOKS IS THE MEDINA BOOKS.....May Allah Grant the Thowfeek to Complete the Set this time.