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  #21  
Old 09-15-2012, 07:47 AM
hassan hassan is offline
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assalaamu alaikum.
يجب means "it is necessary". يجب على means "it is necessary on". يجب عليك means "it is necessary on you". يجب عليك أن تكتب means "To write is necessary on you".


يجب عليك أن تكتب
فعل يجب
فاعل أن تكتب
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2012, 08:17 AM
ansar ansar is offline
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Can the word يجب be conjugated as

1) يجب - It is necessary ... - Him
2) تجب - It is necessary ... - Her /You
3) أجب - It is necessary .... - Me
4) نجب - It is necessary .... - Us

If so why is it :

يجب عليك أن تكتب

and not :

تجب عليك أن تكتب

Last edited by ansar; 09-15-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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  #23  
Old 09-15-2012, 08:40 AM
hassan hassan is offline
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assalaamu alaikum.
I am not understanding why you want to use تجب with أن تكتب. If you want to use تجب then bring feminine فاعل, like: تجب عليك الكتابة


I have no idea about أجب and نجب.

Last edited by hassan; 09-15-2012 at 08:48 AM. Reason: addition
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2012, 09:03 AM
ansar ansar is offline
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Let me Phrase it a bit more clearly.
Can the word يجب be conjugated as

1) يجب - It is necessary ... - Him (3rd Person Singular Masculine)
2) تجب - It is necessary ... - Her (3rd Person Singular Feminine)
3) تجب - It is necessary ... - You (2nd Person SingularMasculine)
4) أجب - It is necessary .... - Me (1st Person Singular M/F)
5) نجب - It is necessary .... - Us (1st Person Plural M/F)



a) In the statement :

يجب عليك أن تكتب

(It is using a 3rd Person Verb (lil baeed), refering to a 2nd Person عليك (Ka' in Alaika is 2nd Person Masculine) and Tha' in Thakthuba is 2nd Person Masculine. They dont match.

b) In the statement :

تجب عليك أن تكتب


In this sentence the Tha' in Thajib and the Ka in Alaika and the Tha in Thakthub - all matches - They are all 2nd Person Masculine, Present tense.

c) If we look at another statement -
يجب عليه أن يكتب


In the above statement the Ya of Yajib is 3rd Person, the "he" of 3laihi is 3rd Person Masculine and the Ya of Yakthuba too is 3rd Person Masculine. The sentence matches on 3rd Person (lil Baeed) Masculine Present tense.


My Question is Why write it in the (a) form when the 3rd Person verb doesnt match with the 2nd Person the sentence refers to :

Am I clear ?

Last edited by ansar; 09-15-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2012, 09:48 AM
hassan hassan is offline
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assalaamu alaikum.

Just keep in mind that when you want to use masdar muawwal as a فاعل (like أن تكتب) then you will use third person verb يجب.

The reason why we are not using تجب(you) is because we want to bring a فاعل later on. If we use تجب(you) then we cant bring فاعل because تجب already contains a فاعل in it. Read Book 2 Lesson 5.

Last edited by hassan; 08-08-2017 at 04:24 PM. Reason: remove ambiguity
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  #26  
Old 09-16-2012, 06:46 AM
aashifrashad aashifrashad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansar View Post
Let me Phrase it a bit more clearly.
Can the word يجب be conjugated as

1) يجب - It is necessary ... - Him (3rd Person Singular Masculine)
2) تجب - It is necessary ... - Her (3rd Person Singular Feminine)
3) تجب - It is necessary ... - You (2nd Person SingularMasculine)
4) أجب - It is necessary .... - Me (1st Person Singular M/F)
5) نجب - It is necessary .... - Us (1st Person Plural M/F)

brother, according to my understanding this is wrong.
rather it is,


1) يجب - It(masc) / He is necessary
2) تجب - It(fem) / She is necessary
3) تجب - You are necessary
4) أجب - I'm necessary
5) نجب - We are necessary

so in 3,4,5 the fa'il is always mustatir. so we don't use those forms to this verb obviously cz it doesn't make sense to say (you are necessory i'm necessory etc)
not all conjugations of all verbs make sense.


so let's talk about يجب,
we translate it as "IT is necessory"
the word IT here is the fa'il which is mustatir.
so when we replace "IT" by a mawjood fa'il(visible fa'il)
as
TO WRITE is necessory
here we see the phrase " TO WRITE" has replaced "IT"
so it is the fa'il.

so when we say,
أن تكتب يجب
it is translated, "To write is necessory on you"
the you is signified by the ت

So by saying
أن تكتب يجب عليك
by using عليك we are infact saying "you" two times which I think is for emphasis.
cz we have seen sentences with and without عليكin the textbook.


by the way if we convert this into Al-Masdar we will say,
الكتابة تجب عليك here the fai'l الكتابة is feminine so it is تجب as clearly pointed out by bro.hassan

but here we should definitly use عليك to translate it as,
the writing is necessary on you.

in the end we have to understand that the meaning of some verbs are derived differently.
not all Objects of all verbs are derived by asking the question,
"did WHAT?"
and not all fa'ils are derived by asking the question,
"WHO did?"

last but not least,
this is what i have understood brother and my understanding might be incorrect. what I did was i tried to explain you in my point of view. brother please correct me if i'm wrong
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Last edited by aashifrashad; 09-16-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-16-2012, 09:29 AM
W.Syed W.Syed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansar View Post
I checked Hans Wehr - I didn't come across any mention of the Verb being Intransitive - The Abreviation for Intransitive in the Dictionary is "intr." - What I have is 3rd Edition (1976). Bro Saeed can you confirm whether you have the abreviation "intr" stated.

SA,

I have the 4th edition which (although it does have the abbreviations tran./intran. I don't think I have ever seen them used besides a verb. HW has a small "haa" sign followed by "s.o/s.th" when it wants to represent something which is mansoub (with reference to verbs this is the maf'ulun bihi), I didn't find any such sign next to the meaning of the verb "wajaba" and this assumed it is intran. - But I could be wrong.

With regards to Br Aashifrashad's post above, I think it is accurate and correct.
Just note that when we ask the two question "what" and "who" on a verb to find the maf'ulun bihi, we are asking with reference to who "suffered the action of the verb".
So if I was to say "he killed ..." - by asking "what/who" you would gte the maf'ulun bihi, because we are talking about the sufferer of the action.
But if I said "it is obligatory" - now if you ask "what ?" then in this case we get the fa'il as you are asking what is obligatory, not what suffers the action of being obligatory (I don't think that last line made much sense but that might be because this verb doesn't have a maf'ulun bihi)

Hope it is clear.

Last edited by W.Syed; 09-16-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2012, 04:57 AM
ansar ansar is offline
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Default Summary of discussion....

For the benefit of any student who may read this lenghty thread in the future - Summary of the discussion as follows : (subject to Clarifications if any).

1. Masdar Al Muawwal –as a compound of the two words it is a Verbal “Noun” so it can be mubdtada, khabar, fail, mafulum behi, ismo majrur, muDafu, mudafu ilaihi.

2. The Verb in the Masdar Al Muawwal – could have a Mafoolun Bihi if needed in the sentence.

3. Certain “Verbs” (Feáls) have Masdar Al Muawwal coming in as a “Faél” – we have learnt a couple of these Verbs from our Lessons.


a. أمكن / يمكن (L 17). (Mutha’addi – Transivitive Verb)

b. وجب / يجب (L 26).( Laazim – Intransitive Verb)

c. إنبغي / ينبغي (L 27). ( Laazim – Intransitive Verb)

4. In sentences where the Masdar Al Muawwal functions as a Faél (فاعل) the Verb in the sentence would be in 3rd Person Huwa or Hiya because only these two verbs allow an external (dhahiri) Faél in the sentence.

5. All Verbs can be fully conjugated to the 14 forms both in Maadhi and Mudhariya as we have studied. There may be some exceptions where it is not conjugated fully (very rare exceptions) which we have not yet studied. (I have come across one in a Verbs Dictionary (حان) as one such example).


Jazakallah Khairan Lakum to the brothers for all the Inputs and clarifications ....

Last edited by ansar; 09-19-2012 at 05:29 AM.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2012, 12:22 AM
Tanweer Tanweer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansar View Post
[size="3"]1. [size="4"]Masdar Al Muawwal –as a compound of the two words it is a Verbal “Noun” so it can be mubdtada, khabar, fail, mafulum behi, ismo majrur, muDafu, mudafu ilaihi.

..
Can you provide an example where Masdar Al Muawwal is a Mudaf ?
Thanks.
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  #30  
Old 09-20-2012, 04:05 AM
ansar ansar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanweer View Post
Can you provide an example where Masdar Al Muawwal is a Mudaf ?
Thanks.
Making the summary -For convenience I just cut and pasted a sentence from the comment of the Admin in his response to a previous post over here...... As a "Noun" logically there is no reason why it should not be a MuDhaf ....but I don't have a specific example from the lessons ...I will leave it for someone more senior to respond.

What we have as examples is a Summary in the Handout for Bk2 and 3 - page 18. This gives examples of - Mafoolun Bihi, Faél, Mudhaf Ilaihi, Mubthada and Khabar.

Last edited by ansar; 09-20-2012 at 08:07 AM.
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