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  #11  
Old 07-07-2012, 01:53 PM
irf2k irf2k is offline
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Waalaikumussalam
It is OK.
The Dameer huwa is called 'Dameer ul fassle' and is not mubtada of any new sentence, its only role in the sentence is remove ambiguity due to the definite khabar.

As you know khabar is normally indefinite, in this example we wanted to use it as definite, so optional 'huwa' was introduced. Now due to this situation the phrase starting with zuu, although definite, is has to be khabar.

Basic point is, even when the noun is definite and the muDafu ilaihi of zuu is definite, it may be khabar if in the context of the conversation is understood to be khabar.

The rules indicated by Dr. Abdur Rahim and taught in book 2 are basic rules for that level students.
His methodology of teaching is block by block and step by step, so he does not write complicated exceptions at the start.

That is the beauty and reason of success of his work compared to other courses or books that right at start through every exception on the 'lap' of the student making him run away, saying Arabic very difficult.

So Br, I understand your need know all about 'zuu'. Be patient, and believe me Dr. Abdur Rahim, will teach the basic needed to understand the Message (that is the limit of Madina 3 books and of this forum).
After that we can learn from other advanced books he has written, but should avoid to go to those books until we finish and are comfortable with the 3 Madina books without getting bogged down with exceptions, just keep in mind that rules have exceptions and that exception are being reserved for later.

Now, let us get to your question about the yellow cover magazine.
Put the sentence in context:
Question: is this it?
Answer: No, the yellow cover magazine.
So, in context, 'yellow cover' is coming as something to qualify the magazine.

Now,
If you remove the sentence from context of this dialog, you can take it both ways and if you wanted to make sure that is taken as khabar you would use the damier-ul-fassle.

Wassalaam
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:17 PM
hassan hassan is offline
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assalaamu alaikum.

Solid point is this that zuu is mudaaf and cannot take 'al'. So when zuu needs 'al' then we decorate its mudaaf ilaihi with 'al'.
Normally its mudaaf ilaihi defines it being a na't or a khabar. But as brothers stated sometimes according to context it may act differently. Just finish Madina Books slowly slowly and at the end every thing will be in your hands inshaAllah. May Allah increase your curiosity for this language.

Last edited by hassan; 07-07-2012 at 08:42 PM. Reason: replaced "rule" with "point".
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2012, 05:03 PM
aashifrashad aashifrashad is offline
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assalamu 'alaikum,

mashaAllah i've been reading this thread for the last couple of days and i benefited exceedingly.

What i want to do now it to summer up everything according to what I have understood, If the moderator thinks that I am unnecessarily elongating this thread please remove this.

what I had understood about ذُو was that, the role of ذُو in a sentence is to be determined by the context of the sentence as bro, irf2k had stated.
for example,
if we get a sentence like,
الْمجلّةُ ذاتُ الغِلافِ الأصفَرِ
the ذُو here is Khabar cz the sentence is meant to be complete. because its an answer to the question. and the هي in the beginning has been dropped.
translation: (It is) the magazine with the yellow cover(the sentence is complete)

and if we get the same sentence like this,

الْمجلّةُ ذاتُ الغِلافِ الأصفَرِ صغيرٌ
then we say the
ذُو here is Naa't cz we can see a Solid khabar coming in the end.
translation: The magazine with the yellow cover(the sentence is incomplete up2 this point) is small.
--------------
so depending on the situation we decide what it is.

OK now that is what I had known about this
ذُو (solely from what I had studied from Br.Asif)until I ended up reading this thread and became a little confused.

what I don't understand is that how come there is a rule like this?
****************QUOTE FROM BR.IRF2K**********************

(It is not a quote, i've just put it in the box to try to get it noticed).
If the two words enclosing ذو are both definite or both indefinite then ذو takes the role of na3t.
If this two words enclosing ذو are opposite in their definiteness then ذو is khabar.

************************************************** **************************************

is this a rule that was taught by Br.Asif, or is it an established rule that we have not covered to this point?
this is what confused me.

Again I.m sorry bros.
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:10 PM
hassan hassan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aashifrashad View Post
assalamu 'alaikum,

If the two words enclosing ذو are both definite or both indefinite then ذو takes the role of na3t.
If this two words enclosing ذو are opposite in their definiteness then ذو is khabar.

************************************************** **************************************

is this a rule that was taught by Br.Asif, or is it an established rule that we have not covered to this point?
this is what confused me.
wa alaikumussalaam.
This is not a rule. I am sorry if you got confused because of my replies.

If you want to make zuu a na't then how will you do this? Or
If you want to make zuu a khabar then how will you do that?
This - the way to make it na't and khabar - is described by Dr. Abdur Rahim in Key 2, p. 24.
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2012, 08:36 PM
irf2k irf2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassan View Post
wa alaikumussalaam.
This is not a rule. I am sorry if you got confused because of my replies.

If you want to make zuu a na't then how will you do this? Or
If you want to make zuu a khabar then how will you do that?
This - the way to make it na't and khabar - is described by Dr. Abdur Rahim in Key 2, p. 24.
As Br. Hassan very well said. It is not a rule.
Nowhere in Madina Books you will find such a rule.
Even if it was a rule taught by the best University of the world it would have no place in this forum for the beginners level.

It is important that we do not make-up rules based on our conclusions. And remember rules have exceptions.

When this thread had started I was not sure how it would be used as khabar and I spoke Br Asif he did not tell me of any rule, he said depends on the context where is being used.

Dr. Abdur Rahim, asks us, in the exercises of lessons 1 and 6, to ponder in the usage of zuu.

Let us not get 'lost' in rules and its exceptions.

Wassalaam
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