why jumlah ismiyah being khabar and not jar majroor

[benss]

Originally Posted by irf2k

It must be some difficulty in me to explain.
May be another member can do a better job.
Sometimes the choice of words in the explanation may make difference.
Wassalaam

Salâmou'aleikoum wa rahmatoullâh wa barakâtouh,

definitely not, you did explain well brother irf2k.
Especially when you said:

In your original posting if we took "lahu" as khabar of Hamid, then how would you analyze the rest of the sentence (أربعةُ أبناءٍ) ?

Besides, I understand azeemkhan's interrogations about the matter under dicussion. However, one has to explore and study the notion of تعليق of shibhu jumla to get rid of the problem.

And Allah knows the best.

[Mazhar]

Originally Posted by azeemkhan

in book-1 lesson-22 the sentence is

حامدٌ له أربعةُ أبناءٍ

why له cannot be shibhu jumlah khabar here?

Assalamo Alaikum,

Yes it is relating to Khabar. But not to the Khabar of Subject of sentence حامدٌ. It is relating to fronted predicate of the Inverted nominal sentence which is in nominative state له أربعةُ أبناءٍ as the Predicate of Subject حامدٌ

[azeemkhan]

It is relating to fronted predicate of the Inverted nominal sentence which is in nominative state له أربعةُ أبناءٍ as the Predicate of Subject حامدٌ

sorry, but can you explain it in simple words?

one has to explore and study the notion of تعليق of shibhu jumla to get rid of the problem.

would you elaborate on this please, i just started book-2 and can't make out what you said.

In your original posting if we took "lahu" as khabar of Hamid, then how would you analyze the rest of the sentence (أربعةُ أبناءٍ)

well, can't we analyze like below?

حامدٌ - mubtada'
له - shibhu jumlah khabar
أربعةُ أبناءٍ - muDaf/muDaf ilaihi or a'dad ma'dud

[benss]

Salâmou'aleika wa rahmatoullâh wa barakâtouh brother azeemkhan,

would you elaborate on this please, i just started book-2 and can't make out what you said.

• the notion of تعليق is something that Sheikh AbduRahîm (May Allah reward him) didn't come across in Medina Books.
  So i don't think that it is appropriate to "elaborate" as you've asked me to do and this for many reasons (among which to
  not confusion you in your learning process through Medina Books).

• Of course I did mention it (تعليق ), but I did it on the purpose to reassure you and to tell you that your interrogations are
  understandable and legitimate. So, be patient and you'll se, you'll store up more understanding and knowledge as you are going
  through Medina books and all ambiguities will vanishe inchaAllah.

• Having saying that, it is very easy to see what is going wrong when you said:
  
  

  well, can't we analyze like below?
  
  حامدٌ - mubtada'
  له - shibhu jumlah khabar
  أربعةُ أبناءٍ - muDaf/muDaf ilaihi or a'dad ma'dud

  Again, brother irf2k relevant pointed out:
  
  

  if we took "lahu" as khabar of Hamid, then how would you analyze the rest of the sentence (أربعةُ أبناءٍ) ?

• Ok, I know, you've preciselly answered by saying that then أربعةُ أبناءٍ would be considered muDaf/muDaf ilaihi. But that does not solve the problem at all !
  Of course, أربعةُ أبناءٍ is in any case muDaf/muDaf ilaihi (whatever the sentence we deal with), and this does not anwser to the core question:
  what's the grammatical/syntaxical role of أربعةُ أبناءٍ in the whole sentence ??
  Indeed, when you say أربعةُ أبناءٍ is muDaf/muDaf ilaihi and you stop your analysis here, you've just defined the function played by these two words with each other out of their fonction in the whole sentence. In other other, being muDaf/muDaf ilaihi only gives the possessive relationship/functionnality that exists between أربعةُ and أبناءٍ but something is still missing ! you say nothing on their syntaxical function within the whole sentence, that is to say "their role/function to understand the whole sentence".

• Moreoever, supposing, as you've suggested, that:
  

  حامدٌ - mubtada'
  له - shibhu jumlah khabar (khabar of who ??)

  then here you implictely state that this "sentence" حامدٌ له conveyes a complete idea (مفيد) as it is build on (according to you) a Subject/Predicate relationship (mubtada/khabar). But this is not the true ! Indeed, حامدٌ له means "Hamid, he has"....has what ??? => Something is missing to make your sentence meaningfull (مفيد) : this means that something is going wrong in your syntaxical analysis.

• To find out the correct analysis, Ustedh Assif (May Allah bless him) taught us that the predicate is of 3 kinds (or 5 if we split the 3 catergories), among which is "jumla"; that is a sentence can take the role of "predicate" (khabar) in a sentence. Which is our case actually in :
  
  
  حامدٌ له أربعةُ أبناءٍ
  Litterally: Hamid, he has four sons.
  
  mubtada (that is, the subject we are talking about)= Hamid
  khabar (that is, the information conveyed by the sentence, what we know about "Hamid") = he has four sons
  
  مبتد=حامدٌ
  جملة اسمية خبر= له أربعةُ أبناءٍ

• Also very important for you understanding (don't skip it !!) : If you want to go one step further (and now i understand why you want to give to له the role of khabar), you can then in a second step (kind of overlapping analysis where you have a sentence in a sentence) analysis the sentence below independently as:
  
  جملة اسمية = له أربعةُ أبناءٍ
  where indeed :
  
  له = shibhu jumlah khabar (it is indeed khabar of...)
  أربعةُ = ...mubtada wa houwa muDâf
  أبناءٍ = muDâf ilaihi
  
  Indeed, this last sentence consititute in itself a meaningfull complete sentence.

• By the way, in english too you either say:
  
  Hamid, he has four sons => (a sentence within a sentence, the latter being the khabar of the first, kind of overlapping)
  
  or
  
  He has four sons => (one single sentence, simply subject/predicate relation)

I know I haven't been concise and I'm sorry for that (I've tried to compensate making my post as pleasant to read as possible )
I hope I least that you've got my explanation.
Otherwise, don't hesitate if I was not clear somewhere in my explanation.


Don't worry, you'll get use to this kind of construction inchaAllah with practice and experience.

And Allah knows the best...

[azeemkhan]

assalamo alaykum,

from your last post and brother irf2k's answer i can assume that mubtada'/khabar combination should always give a complete meaning, so if jar majroor shibhu jumlah doesn't make sense then we should look for other types of khabar.

[hassan]

wa alaikumussalaam.

When we make a nominal sentence we first say mubtada. And after that we tell something about it in its khabar. Sometimes only one word is sufficient to explain the mubtada. Sometimes we bring jaar majroor for this purpose. And sometimes we see that the whole jumla is coming to tell something about the mubtada. This is the relationship of mubtada and khabar.

I learned that arabic is very rich language in alot of perspectives. It doesnt becomes sterile only after explaining us about mubtada and khabar. It has alot of concepts in it. Infact mubtada and khabar comes when we have nominal sentence. If we have verbal sentence then we generally dont even smell mubtada and khabar.
Tamyeez is another thing which comes in arabic sentences. It comes to remove ambiguity from the sentences. It has its own beauty and a great detailed explanation. And alhamdulillaah dr abdurraheem explain tamyeez in book 3. You can refer to it.

In your original posting له is the part of khabar. It is the part of a jumla which is coming as a khabar. So after haamid we give a pause and then we will say له أربعةُ أبناءٍ.

حامدٌ - mubtada
له أربعةُ أبناءٍ - khabar

In lecture 10 brother Asif taught us this kind of khabar, and he quoted the following example:

أُختِي لها طفلٌ صغيرٌ

أُختِ - mubtada
لها طفلٌ صغيرٌ - khabar

[benss]

First, in response to that:

Originally Posted by azeemkhan

assalamo alaykum,

... if jar majroor shibhu jumlah doesn't make sense then we should look for other types of khabar.

-------------------------------------------------------------
jar majroor shibhu jumlah ALONE never make sense alone.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Second, I take this opportunity to sum up what I've said so far.
The following lines I'm going to write may sound "evident" or even "superficial" at a first glance, so that one may say: "That's fine, I already know that..." or say something like "That's enough, it's too redundant, I've got that..." but, on the contrary, they are fundamental and have considerable implications to ensure that the successive lessons of Medina method that one follows work smoothly. The comprehension of the "golden rules" below will finally ensure inchaAllah our final purpose: understanding structure of sentences, avoiding any ambiguity when reading Quran and other arabic materials.

---------------------------------------------------
Please take your time and carefully read this
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A nominative sentence is like a two-boxes object that one might fill to express his though.

1. In the first book/support the speaker will put the "subject" (المبتدأ):
   that is the thing or person or theme or idea...that the speaker has in mind and about which he wants to talk about, preciselly about which he wants to give an information to fulfill his thought and make the latter understandable to any interlocutor.
2. In the second boxe/support the speaker will put the "predicate" (الخبر):
   that is preciselly the information "describing" the subject in (1).

So, you see that (1) an (2) are intrinsically inseparable and only both convey complete meaning. You can't cut the cord between the two. So please, keep in my that structure:

[Khabar]------------------[Mubtada]

Now the specifity of the second box, that is the "khabar" (the information attached to the subject), is potentially of 3 kinds/natures (depending of how complexe is the speaker's thought):

1. a single word,
2. a shibhu jmula (harf jar and ism majrour [OR] Dhart)
3. a complete sentence (nominal or verbal) => in which case you have a sentence interlocked in a sentence, like the Russian nested doll .

Having this in mind then, you'll master every nominal sentence you'll come across in Medina book inchaAllah.

See how logical is Arabic language !

[irf2k]

Originally Posted by azeemkhan

in book-1 lesson-22 the sentence is

حامدٌ له أربعةُ أبناءٍ

why له cannot be shibhu jumlah khabar here?

Assalamu Alaikum,
Please read key to lesson 11 of book 3 where Mubtada and Khabar are explained in detail.

I'm closing this thread because the explanations are very clear. Nothing more can be added.
If you still have questions regarding mubtada and khabar after reading the key to lesson 11 feel free to post your detail question in a new thread.

Wassalam